Greg,
I thing others are interested in this as a discussion, if you would be so good to share.
Laur
On Tue Dec 22nd, 2009 2:27 PM EST The Witful Turnip wrote:
>>Message: 1
>>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:29:37 -0800
>>From: Greg McKenzie <gregmck(a)earthlink.net>
>>To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>>Subject: Re: [Callers] Cub Callers
>>
>>Greg wrote:
>>The older veterans also seem to gain so much confidence that they
>>sometimes begin dropping some of the basics techniques of contra
>>dance calling, such as using effective word order in their
>>prompts....
>
>I think I've seen you mention this a couple of times Greg. Can you please
>provide some examples of what you feel are ineffectively ordered calling
>prompts and how you would change them to make them more effective? I'm just
>curious about what your take on this is. Unfortunately, I tend to read
>Shared Weight sporadically (plain old lack of time) so if you've actually
>covered this in a prior post, and can forward that to me, that would be
>great.
>
>Thanks much,
>Bev
>
>_______________________________________________
>Callers mailing list
>Callers(a)sharedweight.net
>http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>Message: 1
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:29:37 -0800
>From: Greg McKenzie <gregmck(a)earthlink.net>
>To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
>Subject: Re: [Callers] Cub Callers
>
>Greg wrote:
>The older veterans also seem to gain so much confidence that they
>sometimes begin dropping some of the basics techniques of contra
>dance calling, such as using effective word order in their
>prompts....
I think I've seen you mention this a couple of times Greg. Can you please
provide some examples of what you feel are ineffectively ordered calling
prompts and how you would change them to make them more effective? I'm just
curious about what your take on this is. Unfortunately, I tend to read
Shared Weight sporadically (plain old lack of time) so if you've actually
covered this in a prior post, and can forward that to me, that would be
great.
Thanks much,
Bev
When I was a "cub caller," at one point I got stuck in a rut where my local community hired me for a half dance once a quarter, and that was it. This went on for about 2 years, and because I never got enough "fly time" (as Joseph Pimentel terms it), I never got better. Finally a caller from the nearest neighboring community took me under wing, and I was getting whole evenings, and then I got better very quickly.
So the moral of the story is, organizers can also err on the side of being too cautious about getting new callers in front of a mic. Sure, you can hold discussions about calling, think about calling, practice calling, dream about calling -- but the only way to learn is to get up there and do it. Over and over and over.
Gloating alert: The coda to my story is that now other communities book me far in advance, so that by the time my local organizer approaches me, there's no room on my schedule. Local dancers keep asking when I'll call next, and act disappointed to hear I'm not on the schedule. I try to hold back the triumphant evil laughter until out of earshot of the organizer.
Lewis
Dear fellow dance callers,
I have an opportunity coming up next spring to lead a day-long workshop for
dance callers. It'll be a small group, perhaps 10-12 people, with a range of
experience. Some will have had only 2-4 years of active calling while others may
have had 20 years or more. These will be folks who are comfortable with contras
and with traditional squares. They will know each other already. They're open to
a wide variety of topics and teaching methods.
I've been invited to address just about any topics that are near and dear to me,
so I'm relishing this prospect.
At the same time, I'd like not to spend an entire day on a soapbox. With that in
mind, I'm soliciting opinions from this group-- rather than, say, the
trad.dance.callers listserv-- because this Shared Weight group includes some
callers on the less experienced end of the spectrum.
So, what are topics that _you_ would like to see in a workshop? Assuming that
one already has the nuts and bolts of programming an evening, teaching a dance,
and delivering the calls in good fashion, what skills would be useful to
address?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
David Millstone
Lebanon, NH
How bad would it have been to have the board basically put its foot down
and, after one of the not-very-great evenings, suggest that the next time
that person is asked to call, they prepare just half a night, or a third of
a night?
I'm curious - how did you "bring along" the new callers? Was there a
teacher/student relationship, or more of a peer-to-peer setup? I ask because
we have a bunch of cubs - I'm one of them - and it's always been
peer-to-peer, with input from experienced callers only from time to time. To
a certain extent, we critique each other. When one of us manages to screw
up, we have a friendly enough atmosphere at our Calling Parties that we can
admit it, figure out what to do better, and move on. We've been at it for
almost two years, and are only slowly moving into the rotation, mostly at
shared caller nights until someone is "ready", and even then, not as often
as the regular callers.
So far, it seems to be working. I hope that we don't develop a situation
such as the one you described! We should remain on our toes, just in case.
Interestingly, we previously had a couple of regular callers whose dances
broke down often enough that it was becoming noticeable, but after the cub
callers started calling, it happened less often! I'd like to think that the
improvement was less from the competition than from the fact that more
people were paying attention to the callers' art, and so what had become
somewhat routine took on renewed energy.
M
E
On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Lindsay Morris <lindsay(a)tsmworks.com>wrote:
> Our dance group brought along a group of half-a-dozen "cub callers" a few
> years ago.
>
> It was a bad thing.
>
> After they got into the calling rotation at our weekly dance, they never
> wanted to get off, of course.
> Our really good callers got to call less often; the new callers only got to
> call a dance once every 3 months, so they never got any better. The dance
> was plagued with inexperienced and not-very-great calling for years.
>
> Sorry to offer problems without solutions, but this well-intentioned
> debacle
> has stayed on my mind. Seem like this is the place to share the
> "cub-callers" problem.
>
>
> Lindsay Morris
> Principal
> TSMworks
> Tel. 1-859-539-9900
> lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Delia Clark <delia_clark(a)comcast.net
> >wrote:
>
> > David,
> > Let's do one of these for VT/NH! Aren't you just the guy to organize
> it!!
> > ;-) OK, I would help -- how about you put me in charge of organizing
> > supplies for the schmoozing part!
> > Delia
> >
> > On Dec 15, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Katy Heine wrote:
> >
> > Hi, David--
> >>
> >> Ever since the "Ted's Triplets" marathon eight years ago, we in Central
> >> New
> >> York have had an annual callers' gathering on different themes. These
> have
> >> been more an opportunity to share repertoire than for older, more
> >> experienced callers to mentor younger, less experienced callers--so
> really
> >> not a parallel to what you're talking about, but maybe of interest
> anyway.
> >>
> >> The topics over the years have included dances in unusual formations;
> >> "living room dances" (i.e., dances for small numbers of people); the
> Gene
> >> Hubert legacy; English for contra dance callers; and calling for
> community
> >> dances, weddings, and one-night-stands. The next one (March 6) will be
> >> "Zesty Contras," which will be dances from Larry Jennings' first book.
> >> (Many
> >> of us have the book on our shelves but have not actually mined it for
> the
> >> gems that assuredly lie within.)
> >>
> >> These annual workshops are a great opportunity for the community of
> >> regional
> >> callers to come together to schmooze, share, and enjoy each other's
> >> company.
> >> I strongly encourage callers everywhere to give it a try!
> >>
> >> --Katy Heine
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: callers-bounces(a)sharedweight.net
> >> [mailto:callers-bounces@sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of David Millstone
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:48 PM
> >> To: Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> >> Subject: [Callers] Callers' workshop
> >>
> >> Dear fellow dance callers,
> >>
> >> I have an opportunity coming up next spring to lead a day-long workshop
> >> for
> >> dance callers. It'll be a small group, perhaps 10-12 people, with a
> range
> >> of
> >> experience. Some will have had only 2-4 years of active calling while
> >> others
> >> may
> >> have had 20 years or more. These will be folks who are comfortable with
> >> contras
> >> and with traditional squares. They will know each other already. They're
> >> open to
> >> a wide variety of topics and teaching methods.
> >>
> >> I've been invited to address just about any topics that are near and
> dear
> >> to
> >> me,
> >> so I'm relishing this prospect.
> >>
> >> At the same time, I'd like not to spend an entire day on a soapbox. With
> >> that in
> >> mind, I'm soliciting opinions from this group-- rather than, say, the
> >> trad.dance.callers listserv-- because this Shared Weight group includes
> >> some
> >> callers on the less experienced end of the spectrum.
> >>
> >> So, what are topics that _you_ would like to see in a workshop? Assuming
> >> that
> >> one already has the nuts and bolts of programming an evening, teaching a
> >> dance,
> >> and delivering the calls in good fashion, what skills would be useful to
> >> address?
> >>
> >> Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
> >>
> >> David Millstone
> >> Lebanon, NH
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Callers mailing list
> >> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> >> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Callers mailing list
> >> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> >> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >>
> >
> > <>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
> >
> > Delia Clark
> > PO Box 45
> > Taftsville, VT 05073
> > 802-457-2075
> > delia_clark(a)comcast.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Callers mailing list
> > Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> > http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
Hi, Lindsay and everyone--
Sounds like those cubs got to take on entire dances before they were
truly ready. Might be interesting to double or even triple cubs like
them up during a single dance, maybe even just the first half, so they
can conference with each other or with a seasoned caller to enhance
the learning that happens. There could be other strategies for
"professional development" as well --- what if your dance series
required a cub to go to a workshop like David's before they could
qualify for prime time (as well as demonstrate that they were ready to
give the dancers what they need)? They might get ready a lot more
quickly.
I think cub callers (with whom I still feel considerable affinity
despite my own slowly-accrued experience) need to do what earnest
aspiring public servants of other kinds do: take some time to think
about the various stakeholders involved, what it takes to meet those
stakeholders' needs, and how they (the cubs) need to prepare to fully
meet those needs. Yeah, that sounds pretty analytic (just noticed that
"anal" is part of "analytic!"---) but those needs revolve around an
incredibly rich shared experience of pleasure, so it shouldn't be too
painful for them to indulge in some constructive reflection.
Of course, if things have stayed the way you described for years,
trying to implement some developmental programming might threaten to
bruise some egos. Guess what I would do in a situation like that
would be cook a lot of really great food, invite a buch of caring
stakeholders including the cubs, and have an open, non-judgemental
discussion of how the dance series is doing and why. After that, float
proposals for solutions to perceived problems and other ideas about
how to move the dance upward and nward.
Chip Hedler
[original message follows]
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:48:20 -0500
From: Lindsay Morris <lindsay(a)tsmworks.com>
To: "Caller's discussion list" <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Callers' workshop
Message-ID:
<73ec9f2f0912160748p120b518eo203919930ebe614b(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Our dance group brought along a group of half-a-dozen "cub callers" a few
years ago.
It was a bad thing.
After they got into the calling rotation at our weekly dance, they never
wanted to get off, of course.
Our really good callers got to call less often; the new callers only got to
call a dance once every 3 months, so they never got any better. The dance
was plagued with inexperienced and not-very-great calling for years.
Sorry to offer problems without solutions, but this well-intentioned debacle
has stayed on my mind. Seem like this is the place to share the
"cub-callers" problem.
Lindsay Morris
Principal
TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lindsay(a)tsmworks.com
Tough situation, particularly for programmers, holding the balance between an excellent dance with skilled talent and fostering the future of the dance through new callers and musicians.
I know that I benefited from taking it slowly: I sought out training and called over a full year of guest spots at others' dances before even attempting a half-dance. These experienced callers offered gentle but pointed feedback, and the dancers offered encouragement since it was only one dance, after all. Even after beginning to call whole eves, I still sought out half-dances for another few months (and still will, actually, since that allows me to dance too - the best of both worlds!)
Adina Gordon is an example of someone who successfully jumped in fast with both feet, but the slow apprenticeship model seems to work well for us ordinary mortals; plus it spares the dance community too much torment while we "raise" new callers who will hold and further the tradition.
Buon Fortuna --
Tina
As one of those callers with 3-4 years' experience, I agree with others who've called for unusual formations like triplets and chestnuts. They're pretty hard to figure out on your own, and local dances will only want them if a caller already has them down cold.
I also would benefit from training in how to deconstruct, and thereby effectively teach, more difficult dances for an experienced crowd. Specifically - and for any dance for that matter - when learning a dance from a card, how to note points of potential difficulty and how to figure out the exact clear, concise thing to say then so the dancers don't get confused.
David, your class sounds like a wonderful opportunity and I'm suddenly a bit sorry I don't live in the east. Break a leg!
Tina
Hi David and All --
As David knows, I'm a caller on the newer end of the spectrum. I
would love a workshop on triplets and chestnuts. I picked up your
book and since I haven't danced many of the dances and the formats
are new to me (and the crowds that I call to), a session dancing them
and learning how to call them would be really helpful. I don't yet
"get" triplets, and knowing how to do them would solve an occasional
issue of calling dances for a very small crowd.
I'm a birder. When I look at a bird and try to identify it, I'm
parsing out the features (beak type, size, flight pattern, etc) and
then there is that ahah moment when the bird is identified. I'm still
waiting for that to happen for me with contras -- I can imagine that
there is a pattern to clusters of them. Maybe this is something that
can only be felt and not taught, but if there are any useful tips on
how you "recognize" a dance I would find that useful. I'm thinking it
will help me with putting down the card and calling from memory.
Count me in!
Nancy Turner
Waitsfield VT
Also agree. Was just at the board meeting for our local dance group,
and one of the things we were talking about was the need for the caller
to reinforce good dancing. Have had a number of folks recently
complain about dance floor injuries from people dancing out of their
space. Strangely enough, we had more issues at a dance that was well
attended, but not overcrowded than we did at a really crowded dance.
Theory was expressed that people possibly felt that they had more space
and expanded to fill it (and didn't really have as much space as they
thought). Then theres issues with allemandes, late twirls,
cranking.....
Would love to hear what you come up with (or other people's ideas) for
ways to get things like that across without being preachy or just
having the dancers stop listening to you.
Jack
At 07:48 PM 12/15/2009, you wrote:
Agreed!
I would also add - how to do the same with "community-building": how
to make
people feel welcome, glad to be there, relaxed with the other
dancers,
friendly, and full of good humor, all without being preachy.
M
E
On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Alan Winston - SSRL Central
Computing <
winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> David wrote:
>
>
> > So, what are topics that _you_ would like to see in a workshop?
Assuming
> that
> > one already has the nuts and bolts of programming an evening,
teaching a
> dance,
> > and delivering the calls in good fashion, what skills would be
useful to
> > address?
>
>
> How to teach/sell 'good dancing' without seeming like a pedant.
(It seems
> like
> it's an easy trap for callers in all country dance genres to aim
for
> competence/efficiency in teaching _dances_, and neglect teaching
_dancing_.
> You pretty much have to slip that style/skill instruction in while
teaching
> dances, and that's a skill in itself.)
>
> -- Alan
>
>
> --
>
>
====================================================================
===========
> Alan Winston --- WINSTON(a)SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
> Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone:
> 650/926-3056
> Paper mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 99, 2575 Sand Hill Rd, Menlo Park
CA
> 94025
>
>
====================================================================
===========
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)sharedweight.net
> [1]http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>
--
For the good are always the merry,
Save by an evil chance,
And the merry love the fiddle
And the merry love to dance. ~ William Butler Yeats
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
[2]http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
References
1. http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
2. http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
