Kalia,
At South Bay Contra ( SF Bay Area) we have a sign posted around the hall (edited from a sign that I got from Pasadena Contra that edited the sign from Lake City Contra). It says:
When looking for your next dance partner, please know:
Anyone can ask anyone. Don’t wait to be asked.
If someone asks you to dance, it’s fine to say no.
You don’t have to sit out a dance because you declined an offer.
If you want to dance, ask someone right after the last dance ends. Sitting down means you are not going to dance.
We also ask that the caller reiterate this during the lesson and during the dance.
Claire Takemori
On 12/16/17 11:39 AM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember
> the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer.
> A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I
> did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to
> dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking
> "If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out.? Oh crap,
> guess I'll have to dance with him."? For the record, he's a totally
> solid and delightful dancer.
>
> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
> replaced, and what has it been replaced with?? In your dance
> community, do you have a written statement of the etiquette around
> this?? Our community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
>
> Kalia
> _______________________________________________
> Although I have occasionally heard of the "rule" that started this
> thread, I don't feel that people should ever be penalized for declining
> an offer to dance.
>
> Dale
Unfortunately, although the rule in question was well-intended, it did
lead to folks sometimes getting cornered by those they didn't want to
dance with, and they were then stuck sitting out.
What I'm hearing from the responses is that this rule is still lingering
in a vague, not-quite-stated-but-sort-of-assumed way in a lot of
dancers' heads. The fact that it's persisting in some places but not
others, or in certain dancer demographics but not others _within the
same dance community_, means that we've got some conflicts brewing. One
incident was mentioned already here by a dancer who was hurt to see
someone who had refused her offer then dancing with someone else.
The culture has shifted hugely, both in and out of the dance community,
since this rule was initially stated. Might be time to address it
head-on rather than letting it lump and bump its way out.
Kalia
Great discussion. I'm chiming in late, but my $0.02.
"No thank you. Maybe later." means you have some reason not to dance this
particular dance with this person, but would be open to future offers.
"No thank you." with a friendly smile is similar but less explicit.
The above should cover 99% of the cases!
"No thank you." without a smile and turning away immediately, is a vague
way of saying, "Please don't ask again." Some people will get the
message. Many won't because the "thank you" diffuses the message.
"No" without a smile and with an immediate turn may be more effective, but
is still vague.
"No. Please don't ask again." is a kind and polite response when you have a
reason never to dance with a person. It tells the person where they stand,
and avoids expectations that might lead to future invitations.
Even kinder is, "No, I don't feel (safe|comfortable|whatever) dancing with
you." It lets the person know unambiguously that there is a problem and
indicates that you might be willing to elaborate.
This leaves open the possibility that the person might ask questions and
learn.
Unfortunately, it also leaves open the possibility that the person will ask
questions as another way to force unwanted attention on you.
In my intro lessons I say something like:
"Feel free to ask anyone to dance.
You will find that most experienced dancers will be pleased to dance with
you.
However, if someone turns down your request, don't be offended. There are
many reasons why they may not be available right now.
If someone you don't know invites you to dance, be open to the idea that
you may be about to make a new friend.
However, you should also feel free to decline to dance with or without
explaining if you need a rest, or have a partner for the next dance, or if
you aren't comfortable dancing with the person who asked."
Although I have occasionally heard of the "rule" that started this thread,
I don't feel that people should ever be penalized for declining an offer to
dance.
Dale
--
There are only two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation,
naming things, and off-by-one errors.
Hi all,
Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember
the rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer.
A very competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I
did (late 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to
dance because he doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking
"If I don't dance with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap,
guess I'll have to dance with him." For the record, he's a totally
solid and delightful dancer.
To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance community,
do you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our
community's statement doesn't directly address this issue.
Kalia
I think that person was really saying "no, sorry; I'm a total self-centered
a-hole!"
When doing a beginner session, I cover the basic asking to dance bit and
then say something to the effect of
"You're free to decline for any reason - just say "no thank you" and move
on. You don't owe any explanation and trying to give one will just delay
that person in finding another partner."
On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
> To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
> turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
> particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!
>
>
>
I employ and teach the method that Angela suggests... but not always. I am
old school enough that I may sit a dance after a refusal of an offer...but
then I rarely refuse an offer to dance unless I really do need a rest or I
have some other obligation. I think George Marshall's presentation in the
video of his beginner's class is worth considering. This issue is addressed
a little after the 11 minute mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14nxFdcaKWA
Bob Green
St. Louis
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On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I think the story you tell is a great reason why the older etiquette of
> having to sit out is silly and outdated -- I'd rather someone who doesn't
> want to dance with me just say "no thank you!" And continue about their
> business.
>
> As a caller, I teach that "yes, thank you!" and "no, thank you!" are both
> perfectly acceptable answers if someone asks you to dance. I also point out
> that if someone declines your offer to dance, too never take it personally.
>
> To clarify, however, being rude is still totally unacceptable! My mom was
> turned down for a dance recently with the line, "no, sorry; I'm *very*
> particular with who I dance with!" Nope! Don't be that guy!
>
> On Dec 16, 2017 3:11 PM, "Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers" <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> This is Cdny’s etiquette page. It addresses saying no but not in great
>> detail in terms of historical practice.
>>
>> http://cdny.org/what-is-contra/contra-etiquette/
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:39 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Those of us who started dancing 2 or 3 decades back probably remember the
>> rule about sitting out the dance if you turn down a partner offer. A very
>> competent male dancer I know who started around the same time I did (late
>> 80s) recently confessed to me that he never asks anyone to dance because he
>> doesn't want to put folks in the position of thinking "If I don't dance
>> with this guy then I have to sit one out. Oh crap, guess I'll have to
>> dance with him." For the record, he's a totally solid and delightful
>> dancer.
>>
>> To what extent has that earlier etiquette norm either survived or been
>> replaced, and what has it been replaced with? In your dance community, do
>> you have a written statement of the etiquette around this? Our community's
>> statement doesn't directly address this issue.
>>
>> Kalia
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
Time to flog one of mine:
Christmas Stars
Improper
A1 Ones star left 1 with woman two (M1 behind partner)
Ones star right 3/4 with man two (W1 behind partner)
Man one cross set to original place
A2 Neighbor gypsy
Neighbor swing
B1 Circle left 3/4
Partner swing
B2 Ladies chain
Long lines forward and back
It's trickier than it looks, because it's different for the ones and the twos.
And it's best to demo the A1.
-Chris Page
San Diego
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Rich Sbardella via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Does anyone have a couple of easy holiday themed contras to share?
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
Here are a few additional titles from my collection. Some may require a
stretch because every family has its own holiday traditions.
Forgotten Treasure - Beth Parkes (the present that was hidden and saved for
last)
Turkey Trot - Unknown
Rings & Things - Tom Lehmann
Box the Cat - Lisa Greenleaf (Or die trying!)
Wrinkled Ribbon - Melanie Axel-Lute
Peace Through Dance - Perry Shafran
Hot Buttered Rolls - Perry Shafran
The Social Butterfly - John Coffman
Out of the Kitchen - Erik Hoffman (Mom was always too busy cooking to come
out and eat)
Petronella for Peace - Devin Nordson
Leap of Faith - Bob Isaacs
Cows are Watching - (Creche) Bill Pope
Star Trek (Three Kings) -Mike Richardson
United We Dance - Bob Isaacs
All You Can Eat - Ted Crane
Return 2 Sender - (wrong size) - Bob Isaacs
I also have a dance I collected that I call Give the Box to Ally somewhere.
If you can provide a title and author I would be delighted.
*Give the Box to Allie *(Becket)
A1 CL 3/4, N Swg
A2 LL, P RH Bal, Pull P R, Pull N Left
B1 Along the Line RH Bal, Box Gnat, Gents All L 1-1/2
B2 P B&S
Happy Holidays,
Rich
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> Does anyone have a couple of easy holiday themed contras to share?
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
I have been curating holiday dances every time they come up on this list (or elsewhere) and just put this program together for Saturday. They aren’t all easy, but perhaps the compilation will be useful to others.
Thanks so much for the ones I’ve gotten from this list over the last while.
Dorcas Hand
Houston
From: Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Rich Sbardella via Callers
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 12:25 PM
To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Holiday Contra
Does anyone have a couple of easy holiday themed contras to share?
Thanks,
Rich
Hi Rich:
I wrote this one for the Valley Contra Dance in Bethlehem, PA, and will happily call it again there next week:
Stars of Bethlehem
Improper
A1. N1 balance, box the gnat, star R
A2. N2 allemande L, N1 swing
B1. Circle L 3/4, partner swing
B2. Ladies chain to N1, star L
Bob
________________________________
From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net> on behalf of Rich Sbardella via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2017 1:24:32 PM
To: Caller's discussion list
Subject: [Callers] Holiday Contra
Does anyone have a couple of easy holiday themed contras to share?
Thanks,
Rich
